[ClusterLabs] Antw: Inconclusive recap for bonding (balance-rr) vs. HA (Was: why is node fenced ?)

Ulrich Windl Ulrich.Windl at rz.uni-regensburg.de
Mon Jun 3 03:01:45 EDT 2019


A rather good summary I think, specifically the notes on link failure
detection and timeouts. One problem is that corosync reacts very (too?) fast on
communication dropouts, while link failure monitoring (and recovery) measures
are typically much slower.

We also fell into that pit years ago: "miimon" seemed nice to detect link
failures quickly, but when plugging into a switch, and the inter-switch links
failed, the host did not detect the failure. So no recovery measures were

When using the ARP method, you must take care to avoid "detecting" a link
failure when a remote host goes offline, and also avoid polling more frequently
than necessary...


>>> Jan Pokorný <jpokorny at redhat.com> schrieb am 30.05.2019 um 17:53 in
<20190530155338.GH6869 at redhat.com>:
> On 20/05/19 14:35 +0200, Jan Pokorný wrote:
>> On 20/05/19 08:28 +0200, Ulrich Windl wrote:
>>>> One network interface is gone for a short period. But it's in a
>>>> bonding device (round-robin), so the connection shouldn't be lost.
>>>> Both nodes are connected directly, there is no switch in between.
>>> I think you misunderstood: a round-robin bonding device is not
>>> fault-safe IMHO, but it depends a lot on your cabling details. Also
>>> you did not show the logs on the other nodes.
>> That was sort of my point.  I think that in this case, the
>> fault tolerance together with TCP's "best effort" makes the case
>> effectively fault-recoverable (except for some pathological scenarios
>> perhaps) -- so the whole "value proposition" for that mode can
>> make false impressions even for when it's not the case ... like
>> with corosync (since it intentionally opts for unreliable
>> transport for performance/scalability).
>> (saying that as someone who has just about a single hands-on
>> experiment with bonding behind...)
> Ok, I've tried to read up on the subject a bit -- still no more
> hands-on so feel free to correct or amend my conclusions below.
> This discusses a Linux setup.
> First of all, I think that claiming further unspecified balance-rr
> bonding mode to be SPOF solving solution is a myth -- and relying on
> that unconditionally is a way to fail hard.
> It needs in-depth considerations, I think:
> 1. some bonding modes (incl. mentioned balance-rr and active-backup)
>    vitally depend on ability to actually detect a link failure
> 2. configuration of the bonding therefore needs to specify what's the
>    most optimal way to detect such failures for given selection of
>    network adapters (it seems the configuration for a resulting bond
>    instance is shares across the enslaved devices -- it would then
>    mean that preferably the same models shall be used, since this
>    optimality is then shared inherently), that is, either
>    - miimon, or
>    - arp_interval and arp_ip_target
>    parameters need to be specified to the kernel bonding module
>    when this is not done, presumed non-SPOF interconnect still
>    remains SPOF (!)
> 3. then, it is being discussed that there's hardly a notion of
>    real-time detection of the link failure -- since all such
>    indications are basically being polled for, and moreover,
>    drivers for particular adapters can add up to the propagation
>    delay, meaning the detection happens in order of hundreds+
>    milliseconds after the fact -- which makes me think that
>    such faulty link behaves essentially as a blackhole for such
>    a period of time
> 4. finally, to get back to what I've meant with diametral differences
>    between casual TCP vs. corosync (considering UDP unicast) traffic
>    and which may play a role here as well, is that mentioned TCP's
>    "best effort" with built-in confirmations will not normally give
>    up in order of tens of seconds and more (please correct me),
>    but in corosync case, with default "token" parameter of 1 second,
>    multiplied with retransmit attempts (4 by default, see
>    token_retransmits_before_loss_cons), we operate within the order
>    of lower seconds (again, please correct me)
>    therefore, specifying the above parameters for bonding in
>    an excessive manner compard to corosync configuration (like
>    miimon=10000) could under further circumstances mean the
>    same SPOF effect, e.g. when
>    - packets_per_slave parameter specified in a way it will
>      contain all those possibly repeated attempts in the
>      corosync exchange (selected link may be, out of bad luck,
>      be the faulty one while the failure hasn't been detected
>      yet)
>    - (unsure if can happen) when logical messages corosync
>      exchanges doesn't fit a single UDP datagram (low MTU?), and
>      packets_per_slave is 1 (default), complete message is
>      never successfully transmitted, since its part will always
>      be carried over the faulty link (again, while its failure
>      hasn't been detected yet), IIUIC
> Looks quite tricky, overall.  Myself, I'd likely opt to live with
> admitted SPOF than with something that's possibly haisen-SPOF
> (your mileage may vary, don't take it as FUD, just a reminder
> that discretion is always needed in HA world).
> I didn't investigate more, but if there are any bonding modes with
> actual redundancy, it could be a more reliable SPOF-in-interconnect
> avoidance (but then, you also need more switches...).  I don't know
> enough to comment on RRP (allegedly discouraged[1]) or kronosnet
> for such a task.
> Would be glad if someone more knowledgable could chime in to share
> the insights and show where the limits to bonding are, especially
> in HA settings.
> Some references:
> https://github.com/torvalds/linux/blob/master/Documentation/networking/bondi

> ng.txt
> https://wiki.linuxfoundation.org/networking/bonding 
> https://wiki.debian.org/Bonding 
> [1] https://lists.clusterlabs.org/pipermail/users/2019-April/025651.html 
> -- 
> Jan (Poki)

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